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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:28 pm 
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bf4 is still absolutely garbage, even after this patch. playing that patch has actually tempted me to return to this game instead (should be some indication of how bad bf4 is)

bf4 is beyond repair. the devs messed up one franchise (medal of honor) and thought to themselves, "hey, we have bf3 here standing on really solid ground. what can we do to screw up this pc franchise? we need to make a sequel, like now! how about we put in a bunch of stuff in it that people hated from MOH and clearly didn't work out too well... yeah, let's call that bf4 and release it along side CoD this year! that should see good results!"

oh, snippy snap.

MoH died, but the devs recycled all that work cause they didn't want it to go to waste! instead of cutting their losses, they ruined 2 franchises instead of one.

dice is now beyond the point of return. at best they will be given an extra year of development time for the next game they work on, like EA had to give bioware for inquisition after delivering that turd dragon age 2. but that also just means EA will have 3 dev teams working on the BF series going forward, similar to how activision does with CoD.

either way, they're just milking the cow, and not actually interested in anything other than maximizing profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-LE0ycgkBQ

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Last edited by shhfiftyfive on Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:42 pm 
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I'll respond to the recent posts tomorrow. I didn't get a chance today. Stay tuned :)


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:59 pm 
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shhfiftyfive wrote:
bf4 is still absolutely garbage, even after this patch. playing that patch has actually tempted me to return to this game instead (should be some indication of how bad bf4 is)

bf4 is beyond repair. the devs messed up one franchise (medal of honor) and thought to themselves, "hey, we have bf3 here standing on really solid ground. what can we do to screw up this pc franchise? we need to make a sequel, like now! how about we put in a bunch of stuff in it that people hated from MOH and clearly didn't work out too well... yeah, let's call that bf4 and release it along side CoD this year! that should see good results!"

oh, snippy snap.

MoH died, but the devs recycled all that work cause they didn't want it to go to waste! instead of cutting their losses, they ruined 2 franchises instead of one.

dice is now beyond the point of return. at best they will be given an extra year of development time for the next game they work on, like EA had to give bioware for inquisition after delivering that turd dragon age 2. but that also just means EA will have 3 dev teams working on the BF series going forward, similar to how activision does with CoD.

either way, they're just milking the cow, and not actually interested in anything other than maximizing profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-LE0ycgkBQ


Not surprised, the procedures in the video about "the fix" looks fishy, like a nice montage.
Frostbite 1 had a nice networking architecture, with Frostbite 2 was not bad, with Frostbite 3, we can just look at BF4 to get the idea.
In my opinion, as a matter of networking architecture nothing compares to Unreal, still the best.


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:34 am 
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People are pounding the BF series (rightfully so), but I get the same type of MP experience in AAPG, at least compared to BF3, which I've played. I don't know if I'll ever consider paying more than $20 for a game again. Anymore, it seems like AAA titles are developed about as well as F2P games.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:16 am 
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Grubber, I got a few questions. What is your role in the Dev team? Can/will the Dev team set up other netcode methods, such as "client prediction" and give them a shot?

Maybe you guys don't have any strong programmers for netcode in UE3. If that was the case, it is possible since this Jaeger dude was part of aa2.x that you could get him to look at aapg and offer some help/advise.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:15 pm 
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JoseyWales wrote:
Grubber, I got a few questions. What is your role in the Dev team? Can/will the Dev team set up other netcode methods, such as "client prediction" and give them a shot?


I am a game programmer for AA. As stated earlier in this thread Unreal natively uses client side prediction and we have not changed that. Almost all actions are utilizing that client side prediction. Some are not and that is because it wouldn't make sense to replicate those type of things as it would add just another thing to send through the network. As for other techniques, it just depends on what we feel the impact will be.

Quote:
Method 1) Calculate hit effects on the client.


This is what we do now. The client will fire, if it thinks a hit landed then it will play hit effects and send it to the server for approval.

Quote:
where you see your bullet hit on the client doesn't actually represent where your bullet hit on the server since they are both calculated independently.


The server doesn't fire its own shot. Shots can be rejected by the server but its rare at best.

Quote:
This system is exasperated by randomness or cone fire, since to simulate the shot on the client you have to simulate the randomness you would also have on the server. The problem is, since it is random the client and the server will have different locations where the bullet will go.


Even with the reintroduction of the cone fire this still is not an issue, the server does not fire its own shot.

Quote:
Method 2) Display hit effects on the client in the proper place by sending the information from the server on where the "real" hit actually happened.


This is a beautiful thing in a world where high ping, even for a second, doesn't happen. As it stands right now it wouldn't change anything about our game except put high pingers at more of a disadvantage and make everyone wait a split second for their shots to land. As I said above the clients shot is the only shot. Therefore we do not have a common disagreement of where the shot landed.

Quote:
Finally, there are the games with the so called "lag compensation". I've never been a fan of this so called lag compensation because of the side effects it causes. If you have ever been playing an online game and walked completely around a corner only to die when noone could possibly have shot you, it was likely do to lag compensation. With these systems the server stores a list of locations and where a player was at a particular time. Then when a player shoots on his client it sends the firing info and a timestamp to the server. So when the server receives this information it basically "rewinds" back to the point in time when the client fired and checks to see if the shot from some time in the past would hit the player back then. The problem with this system is, that depending upon players ping everyone playing the game has a different view of where the other players are at a particular time.


So do use a form of "lag compensation" as described above. Because of the internet, everyone has a different reality that their client sees. With everyone having low ping that reality stays pretty close to the truth but if someone has higher ping, that reality can be noticebly different. "Lag compensation" makes what each client see an accurate reality by essentially moving the hitboxes to the actual player and not some unknown distance in front of or behind them. So yes it can happen with the right amount of ping that running around a corner someone could see you before you see them, and someone could be shot after just running behind a wall. So we can either let each player guess where the hitboxes are or they can just play the game as intended with a chance of weird things happening due to high pings.

Quote:
If you have ever been playing an online game and walked completely around a corner only to die when noone could possibly have shot you, it was likely do to lag compensation. With these systems the server stores a list of locations and where a player was at a particular time.


Just to throw this out there... method 1 and 2 both have this issue with or without lag compensation. The fact is no matter what you do everyone will have a different reality.

Quote:
I prefer the Unreal net code methodology which uses client side prediction instead of lag compensation.


Ok client side prediction is not an alternative to lag compensation they are apples and oranges. Client side prediction is basically the client assuming that the player in front of you kept moving at the rate they were even if you don't get an update for a whole second. Ideally your ping isn't that bad but that is all client side prediction is. Without it, the player would jump to a position and then stop and then appear in another spot and then stop again if your ping was high enough to notice. It would look really choppy and terrible. Lag compensation is simply syncing the hitboxes with your reality. They are used in conjunction with one another not as an alternative to each other.

[EDIT] For a more visual approach this video describes lag related issues and lag compensation techniques in a fairly accurate way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyCQtUFOJmA


Last edited by [Dev]Grubber on Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:21 pm 
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[Dev]Grubber wrote:
Quote:
Finally, there are the games with the so called "lag compensation". I've never been a fan of this so called lag compensation because of the side effects it causes. If you have ever been playing an online game and walked completely around a corner only to die when noone could possibly have shot you, it was likely do to lag compensation. With these systems the server stores a list of locations and where a player was at a particular time. Then when a player shoots on his client it sends the firing info and a timestamp to the server. So when the server receives this information it basically "rewinds" back to the point in time when the client fired and checks to see if the shot from some time in the past would hit the player back then. The problem with this system is, that depending upon players ping everyone playing the game has a different view of where the other players are at a particular time.


So do use a form of "lag compensation" as described above. Because of the internet, everyone has a different reality that their client sees. With everyone having low ping that reality stays pretty close to the truth but if someone has higher ping, that reality can be noticebly different. "Lag compensation" makes this what each client see an accurate reality by essentially moving the hitboxes to the actual player and not some unknown distance in front of or behind them. So yes it can happen with the right amount of ping that running around a corner someone could see you before you see them, and someone could be shot after just running behind a wall. So we can either let each player guess where the hitboxes are or they can just play the game as intended with a chance of weird things happening due to high pings.

You couldn't be more wrong, when you support lag compensation in UE based First Person Shooter.
Anyway, I'll leave it here. Its your game.


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:24 pm 
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[Dev]Grubber wrote:
Quote:
Method 2) Display hit effects on the client in the proper place by sending the information from the server on where the "real" hit actually happened.


This is a beautiful thing in a world where high ping, even for a second, doesn't happen. As it stands right now it wouldn't change anything about our game except put high pingers at more of a disadvantage and make everyone wait a split second for their shots to land. As I said above the clients shot is the only shot. Therefore we do not have a common disagreement of where the shot landed.


The reality is that the truth in AAPG is the opposite of what you're saying.

The high ping player is at an advantage in cqb situations where he maintains movement.

Players begin gaining this advantage at 130ms. I've tested it out in many servers and have played against players a thousand times and have seen it in action. The disadvantage is only a small window from 95ms - 120ms.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:26 pm 
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Thanks you for the writeup.

[Dev]Grubber wrote:
This is a beautiful thing in a world where high ping, even for a second, doesn't happen. As it stands right now it wouldn't change anything about our game except put high pingers at a disadvantage and make everyone wait a split second for their shots to land. As I said above the clients shot is the only shot. Therefore we do not have a common disagreement of where the shot landed.


[Dev]Grubber wrote:
So we can either let each player guess where the hitboxes are or they can just play the game as intended with a chance of weird things happening due to high pings.


I feel this is what plagued AA3, and what still isn't being understood by some. I don't think there is anything you can really say to change their minds about that either. Other than change the system you use, and watch the 1 sec bullet registration and warping high pingers plague this game also. Only then will people understand and beg for this system back. It's a pro's and con's thing, that I feel they got correct. But what do I know...?

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:42 pm 
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[Dev]Grubber wrote:
This is a beautiful thing in a world where high ping, even for a second, doesn't happen. As it stands right now it wouldn't change anything about our game except put high pingers at more of a disadvantage and make everyone wait a split second for their shots to land. As I said above the clients shot is the only shot. Therefore we do not have a common disagreement of where the shot landed.


[Dev]Grubber wrote:
So we can either let each player guess where the hitboxes are or they can just play the game as intended with a chance of weird things happening due to high pings.


These analogies are a part of the problem. High ping should be limited. The focus of enjoyable game play should reinforce that players play on a local server in which their ping is of a respectable level as the players around them. If you eliminate high pings, you also eliminate the "chance of weird things happening". With what you wrote up, it appears the code favors high pingers and not necessarily what is realistically happening on the server. Such calculations can't be beneficial for players who are playing with a respectable ping. You're putting more stress on the server and network in processing such differences.

AA3 was an entirely different story. Initial bullets (first 1-3) landed correctly and efficiently. Using the M16 or DMR you could clearly see that. Andren, I among a few others, perfected the burst with the M249 and were able to maintain a high KDR. If you were using anything with full auto it simply lost the definition of those registrations, likely to do with the numerous difficult calculations and broken interpolation between number of bullets, cones, multiple hit boxes and so on. 9 times out of 10 (with an accurate shot) from one end of alley to the other you could drop an enemy from rather long distance. In AAPG that becomes 6 out of 10.

While this method brings smoother gameplay in AAPG, which is convenient for presenting a polished product, it doesn't seem efficient a true multi-player experience. I won't budge on that stance. AA3 was terrible mess of bugs, but the registration of bullets and hitting what you were really shooting at was superior in comparison to AAPG.

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