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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:51 pm 
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JaK- wrote:
ster!nn wrote:
My point is that out of those who will support aa and help be the word of mouth for the Army, we've heard "We plan this Post RFI-X" before.

You can think, hope, talk, and plan one hand and in the other put "get-to-it-ness" in the form of fixing the audio engine/ adopting new, demorec, netcode, iron sights, map builds, optimizations...etc.

All the help anyone is willing to give is right here and the "doing it later" excuse just drives them away.


This is all I read...

Image


What's kind of funny is that you are trying very hard at ignoring the issues.

"The game's fine as it is, the devs are working on it, they're listening to us for future plans."

When infact it's not, they aren't, and they say they are after tossing one carrot for another.

Were you part of the Comp-Beta group and asked for your assessment of the game and constructive ways to improve? Have you been given lip service inspite of the work and effort in maximizing the efforts of the Army?

No.

I do believe that at some level that AAPG is grossly neglegent of what they plan to "produce" after beta.

And to be funny, here's the most COC caricature I have of your actions as well as others...

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:55 pm 
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This is starting to stray off topic, lets pull this back to the discussion the OP started which as a reminder was :

dgodfather wrote:
BF is implementing some interesting net design concepts - http://blogs.battlefield.com/2014/06/ne ... 1813540320

Quote:
High Frequency Network Update

For the PC, PS4, and Xbox One platforms, we are adding something we nicknamed the “High Frequency Bubble”.

Within a certain radius of the player, we add the possibility to update the clients at a higher rate from the server. What this essentially means is that the server will update the client on what is happening more often than before. This normally results in a smoother, more “correct” player experience.

The High Frequency Update is by default turned OFF in this release. You will have to enable this setting to take advantage of the improved networking. To support players with a limited bandwidth connection, we support three different levels: LOW, MEDIUM and HIGH. Most players with a connection faster than 1Mbit should be fine using the HIGH setting. If you experience any issues, lower or turn off the setting completely.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MooojiuDRgw#t=68

We/someone needs to put together some testing experiments like this for AAPG.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:38 pm 
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[Dev]Grubber wrote:
Don Quixote wrote:
I am guessing that you wanted to say "any other shooter with a network code similar to AAPG" and that's not a neccessarly a good thing, in fact is the opposite. With UE3 there are several ways for netcode implementation and for a FPS the current one is not the best.
"Lag Compensation" is the worst thing we can do to a FPS.


On the contrary if I meant anything I meant other shooters I have played online which include Halo, Titanfall, COD, BF, PvZ: Garden Warfare. The issues that I see that we deal with are issues that can only be lessened, never solved. Lag is a plague of the internet and can only be helped by optimizing the crap out of what we are sending back and forth (hence statements of an ongoing process).

I am open to new thoughts though, UE3 is a huge engine so there is always something to learn. What way would you call the best for UE3 and an FPS? Feel free to diagram it out from Player A seeing Player B to Player A neutralizing Player B.

In my opinion, those games are not the best to establish some kind of comparison, different engines, different concept.
Also being UE3 highly dependent (and also demanding more than ony other engine) of cpu resources, increasing even more its cpu dependence (tickrate) would provide a counterproductive effect with client and server. As well, UE is not Source where the client is able to manipulate the network settings in order to adjust the "lag compensation" level according to his own latency.

As you well said, latency its the worst enemy of online games, even more when we speak about of a FPS. But "Lag Compensation' is not the solution.
"Lag Compensation" is just an attempt to "hide" the latency constraints putting a mask on it. With a engine where the client is prevented from making any adjustment with network settings, the standard will prevail. Taking in consideration the different network characteristics of each client (mainly latency but not only) this "Lag Compensation" method will provide a nasty output when we speak of a FPS based on UE and due to his own calculation methods it will fail, is just a matter of when.

When we speak about netcode, even more when we speak about UE3, there is no need to reinvent anything, the different concepts already have been invented, it is just a matter of developers preference or what they see as better solution.
Not wanting to sound a fanboy, the best network method for a FPS based on UE is the method commonly called as "client side prediction".
Without going in to technical details about its working concept (not the place and for sure you are better qualified then me for it) I can say that is full compatible with UE3 and it can applied without major dificulties. In fact it has been the preferred choice from the developers of a few successful UE3 based online multiplayer.
This method (being properly implemented) will bring reliability to all the calls network dependant.
The only disadvantage of this method is that the players with higher latency will feel a slight delay in some actions, but without losing the reliability of their actions.
As a personal preference I want the reliablity no matter what, if I am going to lose it at cost of some fake smoothness, then I am out.
At this point I am perfectly aware that any change on the network concept would imply a tremendous effort, but this one I believe that would worth every second of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:28 pm 
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Don Quixote wrote:
Not wanting to sound a fanboy, the best network method for a FPS based on UE is the method commonly called as "client side prediction".


So "client side prediction" is a fairly common practice and natively built into UE3. As such, most of our in game actions (including shots) use this technique. If I understand BF's post right, they are just attempting to decreasing time between information passing so whatever client-side smoothing they are doing works "better".

But I don't believe dgodfather was suggesting we use the technique but rather that we communicate more about efforts to improve and that we improve public techniques for testing the "netcode". Correct me if I am wrong dgodfather.


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:35 pm 
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[Dev]Grubber wrote:
Don Quixote wrote:
Not wanting to sound a fanboy, the best network method for a FPS based on UE is the method commonly called as "client side prediction".


So "client side prediction" is a fairly common practice and natively built into UE3. As such, most of our in game actions (including shots) use this technique. If I understand BF's post right, they are just attempting to decreasing time between information passing so whatever client-side smoothing they are doing works "better".

But I don't believe dgodfather was suggesting we use the technique but rather that we communicate more about efforts to improve and that we improve public techniques for testing the "netcode". Correct me if I am wrong dgodfather.


It would, if was not spoofed with a nasty lag compensation technique.
And yes, the method that I am referring belongs natively to UE3.

Edit.
The developer(s) who have worked with game code still belong to development team?
Probably asking them would be the best way to understand why lag compensation was introduced, when UE does not need it at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:10 pm 
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[MOD EDIT-removed reference to post that was removed]

You're spot on grubber. It's more about communicating and displaying details of the procedures used in testing results. It would easily be more apparent to the community that your testing results showed improvement, if like with the recent smoke video, you provide public information as to how a feature was improved, again similar to the BF video.

In this particular instance, they show the improvements in hit detection and lag compensation. If you tell me the game has improved and then I go play the game, I might not get that impression. Seeing a side-by-side definition of the testing results shows for a fact improvements are there. It's not really a "if I see it I believe it" type of thing. It's more of a positive reinforcement. The better we all (community/devs) can work together, the better off this game will be.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:59 am 
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This was a really good Post about this manner month´s ago posted in this forum copied from another UE3 Dev (i think he was at sometime in your AAO Team, but could be wrong):

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/s ... hp?t=48004

[TW]Ramm-Jaeger wrote:
There is no "disadvantage" to the net code of UE3. It works quite similar to UE2, and Red Orchestra 1 was widely regarded as having some of the best net-code around - with the game being very playable even up to a ping of 200ms. And considering I'm the guy that did the multiplayer network coding for RO1 and I'm doing a lot of it for RO2, you should see similar results in the end. Regarding AA3, I can't speak to it's network code since when I tried to play it it was back when the game wouldn't even function online right after it was released.

When it comes to visual representation of hits (i.e. displaying hit effects/particles) there are two methods possible, and both have their advantages/disadvantages.

Method 1) Calculate hit effects on the client. With this method you get instant feedback on where your bullet would hit (with hitscan weapons). This is great but there is one major flaw - where you see your bullet hit on the client doesn't actually represent where your bullet hit on the server since they are both calculated independently. This was the system that was used in Americas Army 2.X (which I worked on). This system is exasperated by randomness or cone fire, since to simulate the shot on the client you have to simulate the randomness you would also have on the server. The problem is, since it is random the client and the server will have different locations where the bullet will go. This is why in AA2.X you would very often actually see puffs of blood coming off of an enemy that you were shooting, but in reality you didn't hit them at all. Your client side simulated shot had hit them, but your server shot had not.

Method 2) Display hit effects on the client in the proper place by sending the information from the server on where the "real" hit actually happened. The disadvantage of this system is that there is a slight delay between when your shot is replicated to the server and when the hit location is replicated back down to your client. The advantage of this system is that when you see a hit effect appear it actually appears where the real hit happened on the server. In other words, when you see that you blood puffs appearing on an enemy that you shot, you are ACTUALLY damaging them.

In the original RO and since then I have been using method 2. I find the slight delay until the hit effect appears is far outweighed by never getting "false positives" and knowing where my bullets actually hit. Combine this with a non-hitscan system with full bullet ballistics where even if you are playing a non-network game there is a slight delay between when you fire and when your bullet hits, then the delay when playing online is almost not noticeable with a ping < 100 ms.

Also, in your case where you say your ping is 60 ms, but there is a delay 0.3 to 0.5 seconds (300-500ms) either there has to be something wrong with your network, the network between you and the server, or the people coding that particular game. Because in the standard "Method 2" system above, with a 60ms ping it would be about 120ms (or .12 seconds) before you saw the hit effects. Most likely it is a problem with your network, your computer, or your perception of time.

Finally, there are the games with the so called "lag compensation". I've never been a fan of this so called lag compensation because of the side effects it causes. If you have ever been playing an online game and walked completely around a corner only to die when noone could possibly have shot you, it was likely do to lag compensation. With these systems the server stores a list of locations and where a player was at a particular time. Then when a player shoots on his client it sends the firing info and a timestamp to the server. So when the server receives this information it basically "rewinds" back to the point in time when the client fired and checks to see if the shot from some time in the past would hit the player back then. The problem with this system is, that depending upon players ping everyone playing the game has a different view of where the other players are at a particular time. This is why on your machine you could be behind a wall, but the player (who you may not even be able to see on your machine) who has a higher ping than you sees you where you were a short time ago and shoots and kills you. So this is why I think lag compensation sucks :)

I prefer the Unreal net code methodology which uses client side prediction instead of lag compensation. When a programmer knows what they are doing and uses the Unreal net code properly client side prediction gives all of the clients connected to a server a very very close picture of where the other players are actually at on the server at all times. It does this by predicting the physics and movement of the other players. It does this pretty good for super-fast games like UT, and when you slow this down to real world movement speeds like in Red Orchestra this system is rock solid. In other words, in RO when you shoot at someone you can pretty much guarantee they are at where you see them at (up to a ping of 200ms). Likewise when you get SHOT by someone on RO, it was because they could see where you are currently at, not where you WERE a short time ago.

After coding MP network games for nearly ten years, this area is a bit near and dear to my heart, so I'll stop ranting now ;)

Edit: Link repaired.


Last edited by chakka_of_zulu on Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:50 am 
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chakka_of_zulu, link is broken.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:30 am 
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Seems like a pretty good write up. I'd like to hear a devs comment on the piece.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:20 pm 
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chakka_of_zulu wrote:
This was a really good Post about this manner month´s ago posted in this forum copied from another UE3 Dev (i think he was at sometime in your AAO Team, but could be wrong):

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/s ... hp?t=48004
...

This is an excellent post, thank you so much for posting this. Exactly where we should be right now. Especially since these features are already stock with UE3. I sincerelly hope the DEV team will implement these changes after RFI-3 and begin testing. Personally, I'd rather them just implement them now :)

I can't say it enough... if these changes were made I would have a lot less to complain about and a lot more patience with things to come. It would just stop so many negative experiences and irritations I have playing this game.

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