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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:30 pm 
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What the writer fails to note is that packet loss and other general internet issues can add random skips in actions. If you run at 44ms and you drop a packet you will be waiting longer than normal for an action to complete if it completes at all.


People really shouldn't be playing the game with a poor connection or PC. Stop trying to defend those people. I'd rather have an action stutter than to have to wait for clients to predict actions. The trade off is a poor gaming experience for smoother animations? No thanks. Our point is that we aren't happy with this. It doesn't work here. It isn't enjoyable. This game is no more played than AA3 was and that game was a buggy disaster.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:44 pm 
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dgodfather wrote:
Quote:
What the writer fails to note is that packet loss and other general internet issues can add random skips in actions. If you run at 44ms and you drop a packet you will be waiting longer than normal for an action to complete if it completes at all.


People really shouldn't be playing the game with a poor connection or PC. Stop trying to defend those people. I'd rather have an action stutter than to have to wait for clients to predict actions. The trade off is a poor gaming experience for smoother animations?


Those issues can happen to the best of connections. Just because your connections is good doesn't mean the route the packet follows is necessarily good or that it won't experience randomly high load and drop a packet or two. The fact is it can and does happen to anyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:05 pm 
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So allow me to recap some stuff so the ideas are there for reference.

  • Some wish to be able to lead targets
  • Some wish to not see possible side-effects of networks
  • Some wish to see all network related issues and not have them covered up by client-side prediction
  • Some wish to just avoid playing with high ping people
  • Some wish to just try it server-side
  • Some wish to see more developer changes and involvement to address perceived net-code issues*

*I say perceived as some issues attributed to net-code are not necessarily within our control.

Please note anything I missed so I can add it to the list. Thanks!


Last edited by [Dev]Grubber on Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:23 pm 
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It's only beneficial to those with poor connectivity. The rest of us are expected to be satisfied with the balancing of the system in favor of that. For people new or who haven't been gaming long they will never notice.

Client side and compensation methods are only a mask for problems that exist deeper in the game. For people who see outside of the box it doesn't present a good overall gaming experience and I think we will find that long time gamers will notice that. Some gamers have been spoon fed this implementation as the gospel and it's bad for an online multi-player experience. Good for console games maybe, but it doesn't belong on PC.

You've made up your mind. You see the current method as THE best solution. It appears we won't change your mind on that. It's been explained before by a Dev that it's relatively easy to implement a server-side solution. I hope at some point your team decides to provide a server-side implementation as part of the testing environment so that players can see how the game really plays, which could be good or could be bad.

Quote:
So allow me to recap some stuff so the ideas are there for reference.

Some wish to be able to lead targets
Some wish to not see possible side-effects of networks
Some wish to see all network related issues and not have them covered up by client-side prediction
Some wish to just avoid playing with high ping people
Some wish to just try it server-side
Some wish to see more developer changes and involvement to correct perceived net-code issues*


It sounds like your suggesting that any other solution is going to provide a bad experience because of typical network architecture. I would gather it's also pretty clear you are clearly in favor of altering the true path of connectivity in favor of presenting a better game.

I wonder how we made it to today without client-side architecture? A boat load of games have came out and made a lot of money and a lot of fans solely based on a server-side gaming experience. I hope you aren't that transparent. If so, we've got more problems than we ever anticipated. I'm not transparent, I don't think that client-side is a terrible thing for all games. I do think it's it's a bad idea for First Person Shooters which rely on twitch reactions.

Don't take this out of context as to how you see fit with the current implementation. Those comments probably don't pan out as well in a client-side setup. The comments are from what we know of a server-side setup.

Quote:
Some wish to just try it server-side


While only some are posting in this topic, I'm confident you'll find a good number of people desiring this setup. I'm not sure what your thinking in terms of providing a server-side solution, but most importantly, it must be enforced to all players within a server. An option to pick your poison isn't going to present what we want to see.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:54 pm 
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dgodfather wrote:
It's only beneficial to those with poor connectivity. The rest of us are expected to be satisfied with the balancing of the system in favor of that. For people new or who haven't been gaming long they will never notice.

In general there is no benefit for playing with poor connectivity. In certain game situations one could take advantage of their connectivity but the opponent could do the same to them.

dgodfather wrote:
Client side and compensation methods are only a mask for problems that exist deeper in the game.

If they mask anything its internet problems. If we didn't play online then they wouldnt have anything to mask.

dgodfather wrote:
You've made up your mind. You see the current method as THE best solution.

I thought we were having a discussion/debate? Have I once said any of the above? Someone has to have a counter point and most of my points have been in terms of how things actually work. The fact is there is a trade-off either way you go. The debate has been on which is better if there is a better.

dgodfather wrote:
It appears we won't change your mind on that. It's been explained before by a Dev that it's relatively easy to implement a server-side solution.

Yup, I said that and it is.

dgodfather wrote:
I hope at some point your team decides to provide a server-side implementation as part of the testing environment so that players can see how the game really plays, which could be good or could be bad.

I even made a task for this :).

dgodfather wrote:
It sounds like your suggesting that any other solution is going to provide a bad experience because of typical network architecture.

Nope, I'll check my language to make sure I didn't. I only intended to collect the major points.

dgodfather wrote:
I would gather it's also pretty clear you are clearly in favor of altering the true path of connectivity in favor of presenting a better game.

Nope, thats why we don't do it. We do allow client-side prediction to just keep animations playing while it waits for an update from the server if thats what you mean. But we do nothing with connectivity and its path.

dgodfather wrote:
I wonder how we made it to today without client-side architecture? A boat load of games have came out and made a lot of money and a lot of fans solely based on a server-side gaming experience.

And a boatload more will continue to use it and other architectures to make games with. Server-side has its uses, its not going anywhere.

dgodfather wrote:
I hope you aren't that transparent. If so, we've got more problems than we ever anticipated. I'm not transparent, I don't think that client-side is a terrible thing for all games. I do think it's it's a bad idea for First Person Shooters which rely on twitch reactions.

That is a perfectly valid position to have on the subject. I have spent tons of time in this thread making sure it gets the attention it needs. If I was decided on anything then I wouldn't continue talking it out with you guys. As a developer I need to ascertain what is really being said. What everyone wants and what the game needs are not always in alignment. We need to get to the heart of issues to see what can be fixed, what stays, what goes, and what can never happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:04 pm 
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I'm not trying to be offensive, although you, I or anyone else could easily read it that way. I'm just trying to make sure your not overlooking anything and that it's as clear as I can make it. I appreciate your efforts and I'm trying to make every point a focal point of the debate.

You've given the impression that nothing is disrupting the flow of connectivity. While I hear your argument I just don't see that as a true statement. Something is presenting us a problem otherwise this topic wouldn't exist. I think you get that much. It's not all that simple to record video 24/7 and get accurate depictions of the problems we are experiencing. Do you have any suggestions on how we can provide information otherwise?

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:05 pm 
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Grubber, I have one doubt. Can you please help me on this?
Unreal Network method known as Client-side prediction it have client side hit detection or it have server side hit detection?
Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:54 pm 
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Don Quixote wrote:
Grubber, I have one doubt. Can you please help me on this?
Unreal Network method known as Client-side prediction it have client side hit detection or it have server side hit detection?
Thanks in advance.

For most actions client-side prediction will have its own collision detection that it uses to show the player immediate feedback of actions. This can sometimes create false positives when the server checks and returns a negative. In terms of shots, we try to avoid false positives by not allowing hits to trigger feedback until the server confirms.

In short though, client-side prediction can have both server-side or client-side hit detection for shots and walls. Its usually a decision of the developers as to what false positives are acceptable and what aren't. The server is and should always be the authority.


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:56 pm 
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Ok, thanks.
In this particular situation, with AAPG hit detection is in client-side or in server-side?


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:09 pm 
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dgodfather wrote:
I'm not trying to be offensive, although you, I or anyone else could easily read it that way. I'm just trying to make sure your not overlooking anything and that it's as clear as I can make it. I appreciate your efforts and I'm trying to make every point a focal point of the debate.

No offense taken my friend. This has been a good discussion.

dgodfather wrote:
You've given the impression that nothing is disrupting the flow of connectivity.

Nothing within our direct control. Unless you count server lag which is a slightly different issue. What I'm saying is we are not doing anything directly to anyones connection.

dgodfather wrote:
While I hear your argument I just don't see that as a true statement. Something is presenting us a problem otherwise this topic wouldn't exist. I think you get that much. It's not all that simple to record video 24/7 and get accurate depictions of the problems we are experiencing. Do you have any suggestions on how we can provide information otherwise?

I have agreed there is potential for these issues to pop up. The problem is finding the route cause of these issues. Some of the issues attributed to net-code may in fact be related to other game mechanics that cause the server to lag or collision to fail. It's not simple to get video of these things and even then to track down what could have happened. My suggestion is to just keep telling us about issues you are seeing, the more consistent the better because then we can track them down and address them. Right now, most of the issues come in so sparingly if at all that we don't know if its fluke internet stuff or something we can address. Like all bugs, the more people it affects the easier it is to track down.


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