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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:11 pm 
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I'll look at the logs and see if anything is out of place. Thanks for the info.


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:23 pm 
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i was definitely having issues on the i9 urban server last night. some really strange stuff. might just be buggy map stuff. idk.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:35 pm 
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JoseyWales wrote:
This happens to me on a daily basis. I'm almost never in a server that doesn't have 200+ pingers playing, probably because I play a lot of official servers. This sort of thing isn't limited to high pings alone though I do see it with low pingers too. Here is a video I got this morning. This dude 'reaper' has 44 avg ping. He warps in front of me at start. This is exactly what happens with high pings, even during play. Try hitting someone doing this! haha...

Dev's, you'll notice the server, date, and time, in the video on scoreboard.

i'll write it off as packet loss, once the initial warp is over the distance is about the same.
On his screen hes been running at a constant speed mostly, but due to lost packets the server updates his position at a "unsmooth" interval, ping has little to do with this type of issues.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:48 pm 
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He is clearly faster than me, i'm running at the same pace as him I merely turned my view so you could see him go. This actually happened 4 times in a row and I was right along side him, he just ran around me like I wasn't moving.

Imagine trying to hit someone like this, with a bad connection. Generally speaking, if you have high ping, your quality of connection to the server is not going to be good, but probably poor, especially if your in another country.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:57 pm 
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In that instance... the server does correct player collisions and they happen often in the beginning as everyone is trying to run over each other to get to their favorite spot first. I didn't see much in the logs to support anything out of the ordinary. Packet loss is a definite possibility. Once they were away from you I didn't see any speed difference. Try to catch some in game examples, I am more interested in seeing those as they may give us some insights to what might be happening on a server and client that could cause jumps other then normal internet woes or multiple player collisions.


Last edited by [Dev]Grubber on Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:59 pm 
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JoseyWales wrote:
He is clearly faster than me, i'm running at the same pace as him I merely turned my view so you could see him go. This actually happened 4 times in a row and I was right along side him, he just ran around me like I wasn't moving.

Imagine trying to hit someone like this, with a bad connection. Generally speaking, if you have high ping, your quality of connection to the server is not going to be good, but probably poor, especially if your in another country.

what i see, just prior to the stairs he does two "skips" and gets ahead of you, down the stairs the distance is the same, its pretty typical of packet loss and server calculations being corrected by real time information, its not ideal and hitting a player in that time frame could be impossible, but it could also work sort of backwards(for him).

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:04 pm 
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JoseyWales wrote:
This happens to me on a daily basis. I'm almost never in a server that doesn't have 200+ pingers playing, probably because I play a lot of official servers. This sort of thing isn't limited to high pings alone though I do see it with low pingers too. Here is a video I got this morning. This dude 'reaper' has 44 avg ping. He warps in front of me at start. This is exactly what happens with high pings, even during play. Try hitting someone doing this! haha...

Dev's, you'll notice the server, date, and time, in the video on scoreboard.

This is just the "lag compensation" adjusting (based on calculations) the player's position in a attempt to overpass the network constraints.
This time you were able to notice because he was in your team, if he was in the other team you'd be completely oblivious probably getting hit while being perfectly covered.
Also I am quite sure that his perspective (from his end) had nothing to do with what you were noticing, to him everything was nice and smooth.
Extrapolating this to a 24 players environment in a system (lag compensation) that attempts to adjust the gameplay according to the individual network connection conditions/constraints we will get the picture how unreliable this system is.
This compensation is also applied to hit detection, that's why often we get killed before we are able to see the enemy, it's like the enemy bullet is pushed forward.
But what really happens, for the player with problematic connection or high latency, is that the "lag compensation" mechanism will adjust the actions of this player making everything else in the server to happen in the past so he can have a positive result on his actions.
That's why these players have a high rate of success with their actions, hit detection is calculated and adjusted using some "logical parameters" of the "lag compensation".


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:46 pm 
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Don Quixote wrote:
But what really happens, for the player with problematic connection or high latency, is that the "lag compensation" mechanism will adjust the actions of this player making everything else in the server to happen in the past so he can have a positive result on his actions.


I agree and I think people pass this off as a non issue due to the appearance of other typical network problems. It's also a convenient way for a particular design to be accepted as a successful implementation to multiplayer because the actual problems are hidden well. It seriously is (probably not intentional) a cover up network code. It's like, let's use this to present a smooth looking game and no one will ask questions and when they do we can blame it on typical problems that are easily pursued. If I don't see a problem I don't believe it.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:46 pm 
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Don Quixote wrote:
This is just the "lag compensation" adjusting (based on calculations) the player's position in a attempt to overpass the network constraints.

No, no its not. It wouldn't have anything to do with player position as it only cares about shots.

Don Quixote wrote:
This time you were able to notice because he was in your team, if he was in the other team you'd be completely oblivious probably getting hit while being perfectly covered.

No you would see this kind of thing if you could see the other team as well.

Don Quixote wrote:
Extrapolating this to a 24 players environment in a system (lag compensation) that attempts to adjust the gameplay according to the individual network connection conditions/constraints we will get the picture how unreliable this system is.

That system would be unreliable. Thats why we don't use it.

Don Quixote wrote:
This compensation is also applied to hit detection, that's why often we get killed before we are able to see the enemy, it's like the enemy bullet is pushed forward.

Well for the client who go shot the bullet was "pushed forward". For the server the bullet was "pushed backwards". And for the guy doing the shooting the bullet was in real time. But its still not "lag compensation" that causes this.

Don Quixote wrote:
But what really happens, for the player with problematic connection or high latency, is that the "lag compensation" mechanism will adjust the actions of this player making everything else in the server to happen in the past so he can have a positive result on his actions.

Client-side prediction is actually the culprit there. It allows you to see your actions in real time with only the exception of server corrections.

Don Quixote wrote:
That's why these players have a high rate of success with their actions, hit detection is calculated and adjusted using some "logical parameters" of the "lag compensation".

Exactly, those players and all other players should have a high rate of success for any action they perform. But that has nothing to do with "lag compensation" either unless you take a shot and even then its what you see is what you can hit. You make it way more complicated than it is my friend.


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:52 am 
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Ok.
I will leave here this small reading that explains in a comprehensive way (I think) what I have been saying in this already long thread. I hope the four (but small) chapters can help to give a clear idea about this subject, to everyone.
http://www.gabrielgambetta.com/fpm1.html
To you, I really hope this can give a extra will to build a server side network code. Dont know if at this point this is even possible just because the network code that the game have now is part of game code and from what I know a server side network code needs to be built separately from game code and incorporated later.


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