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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:02 am 
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[Dev]Grubber wrote:
Don Quixote wrote:
[Dev]Grubber wrote:
Client A takes 12.5ms to travel just to the server
Client B takes 100ms to travel just to the server
You just see there action 112.5 ms later then they performed it.

[Dev]Grubber wrote:
Client A will see player B doing things player B did on their client 112.5ms ago.
Client B will see player A doing things player A did on their client 112.5ms ago.

^
This makes sense to you? When you and everyone see all the actions (hits included) as if they were taking place without delay due to the "miracle" of latency compensation.

This makes sense because this is how the internet works. No other factors at play, this is how the game would function with travel from client to server to client.

It would make if you could see in your end the delay caused by the travel time.


Don Quixote wrote:
[Dev]Grubber wrote:
[Dev]Grubber wrote:
You are right! We don't remove the natural network latency. All we do is allow you to hit what is "naturally" on your screen.

Let me see, you are saying that we still suffer the latency effect and our action will take whatever is our latency delay to reach the server despite the fact that we see the action happening instantly in our end? Is this what you are saying?

Like you said, ping is travel from server and back to client. If you have a 200ms ping you have 100ms to the server and 100ms back. That means, the server has an updated position of you and your actions every 100ms that it can send to anyone. And then you have the travel time it takes to get to whomever it sends it to. Add those together and you get the difference that you both share.

Latency is the round trip time (the time that your packet takes to reach the server and return to you), you only have the "feedback" of your action after the round trip is completed.
So, if the server takes 200 ms to update my position, why I see it instantly in my end? This is accurate? Looks accurate to you?

[Dev]Grubber wrote:
Don Quixote wrote:
Let's say that I am playing with a latency of 125 ms and I am about to perform the leaning action.
Pressing the key, the leaning action in my end occurs instantly, but it will reach the server only after 125 ms. Is this what your are saying?

It will reach the server in 125 ms / 2 so 62.5ms. But yes this is exactly what I am saying. Meaning you have 62.5ms + travel time to another client to react before someone sees you.

You cannot put it like this, 125 / 2 = 62.5 as the time/delay needed/existent, thats not latency.
Again, Latency is the round trip time (the time that your packet takes to reach the server and return to you), you only have the "feedback" of your action after the round trip is completed.
Again, If I have delay and everyone have delay (whatever delay), why I (We) see the actions instantly in my (our) end? This is accurate? Looks accurate to you?

Same.

Same.

[Dev]Grubber wrote:
Don Quixote wrote:
In my end, I have already stopped the leaning action and from my view I am perfectly covered, but because I need to wait for the delay of my latency (125 ms) for the action to reach the server, I can be killed in server when in my end I already see myself perfectly covered? Is this what you are saying?

With server side hit detection that is how it would work. Again with 62.5ms. Client side hit detection you would have to wait the 62.5ms + travel time to another client. I think you have it my friend!

Negative, it is the opposite.
Being server side or client side is irrelevant, in both ways I will have to wait for the round trip (read above about latency, is not 62.5. It is 125 ms) to have my action completed (do not forget, we cannot remove the latency).
The difference is, without latency compensation I would see the delay in my end, in a server side situation I would press my key and I would have to wait for round trip time (125 ms) to see the action performed in my end.

[Dev]Grubber wrote:
Don Quixote wrote:
Btw, I still would like to know how latency compensation interact and adjust the different latency values of each client in order to provide the same zero latency gameplay experience to everyone, as if we were playing in our local machine. How exactly this mechanism works?

The compensation change anything. Everything happens like above as it would on any other internet game. A change only occurs after you have fired a shot and hit a target on your client. The server confirms that the target you hit was where you said it was when you said it was there. Basically the server checks the update that most corresponds to the time your client hit the target to make sure the target was actually there.

"Lag compensation" does not modify the ping of any user. It does not adjust what you are seeing in any way. It only allows you to hit what you see where you see it just like you would be able to do in real life.

I never said that latency compensation modify our ping, obviously it does adjust or else I would be seeing in my end the actions in server with the respective delay.
Also I would gladly spend some of time to elaborate (even graphically) the concept of latency compensation in way that I am sure you would understand and probably you would agree that's not the best network solution for a fps. However I have the feeling it would be a wasted work, obviously you are a fan of this network concept (I believe you are just because you dont really know how it works).
Still I am happy to know that latency compensation working mechanism is basically for allowing a experience similar to real life.

Btw, glad you agree that what I see and perform (leaning) in my end do not occur with same timing in server. To me would be reason enough to get rid of this compensation gimmick.


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:01 am 
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Reason for edit:
I have moved the post.
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=13581&p=131372#p131372


Last edited by Don Quixote on Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:09 am 
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Don Quixote wrote:
It would make if you could see in your end the delay caused by the travel time.

You kind of do see the delay. Your client shows the most relevant data it can which is a delayed version of what someone else is doing.

Don Quixote wrote:
Latency is the round trip time (the time that your packet takes to reach the server and return to you), you only have the "feedback" of your action after the round trip is completed.
So, if the server takes 200 ms to update my position, why I see it instantly in my end? This is accurate? Looks accurate to you?

Yes latency or ping is the round trip time... this is how we can measure how long it will take a message to go from the client to the server and if needed back again. When you send you position data the server does not need to wait for you to get a response back before sending out that data to someone else. Thats why the travel time for your position data can be used as one way. So the 62.5ms from your example. Though the server will check your actions for correctness, your client will continue on as is until the server says not to. You see the action instantly because it happens instantly and will only change if the server doesn't like it.

Don Quixote wrote:
You cannot put it like this, 125 / 2 = 62.5 as the time/delay needed/existent, thats not latency.
Again, Latency is the round trip time (the time that your packet takes to reach the server and return to you), you only have the "feedback" of your action after the round trip is completed.

Same as above. The time to server is all we care about because thats when the server has the most up to date information that it can send to others. When you get a response is not important to when the server can send information.

Don Quixote wrote:
Again, If I have delay and everyone have delay (whatever delay), why I (We) see the actions instantly in my (our) end? This is accurate? Looks accurate to you?

Like you said above it happens instantly on your client. You perform an action and tell the server what you are doing. You keep going as if nothing changed and nothing will likely change unless the server doesn't like the action.

Don Quixote wrote:
Negative, it is the opposite.
Being server side or client side is irrelevant, in both ways I will have to wait for the round trip (read above about latency, is not 62.5. It is 125 ms) to have my action completed (do not forget, we cannot remove the latency).
The difference is, without latency compensation I would see the delay in my end, in a server side situation I would press my key and I would have to wait for round trip time (125 ms) to see the action performed in my end.

Only certain actions require a server response and its usually handled by doing the action and being told to stop. The game does not wait for the server.

Don Quixote wrote:
I never said that latency compensation modify our ping, obviously it does adjust or else I would be seeing in my end the actions in server with the respective delay.

Not obviously! It doesn't do it... at all... ever. You are mixing several concepts here. So, I'll tell you what, if you really want to figure this out and learns what's going on then PM me and we can setup a skype or something and talk it out. I'm more than happy to do that.

Don Quixote wrote:
Btw, glad you agree that what I see and perform (leaning) in my end do not occur with same timing in server. To me would be reason enough to get rid of this compensation gimmick.

It has nothing to do with that. I agreed that what you saw was a result of the internet, not the "lag compensation" because it has nothing to do with your example.


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:12 am 
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To put a end on this and because we look like two color blind guys arguing about which color is the best.
In this case we do not need arguments to justify facts.
Look here, grab it and set a server for each one.
http://chevys-place.nl
http://store.steampowered.com/app/13140
http://store.steampowered.com/app/203290
Each version has a different netcode, try it for yourself, then make your conclusions.


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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:29 am 
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Well, not sure what was going on here but this thread makes me think of this moment @ 20:35.

I shot ccor through the wood into alamo and it took a full 1/2 second for it to register he died, even from a 3rd party perspective.

From my pov I had quit firing and was going to reposition and try again when all of a sudden the "hit" sound came through the headphones and he died a full half second after I quit shooting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6fH8fTUhM4
20:35

Watch for yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:42 am 
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Watched it, and looked normal to me. Sometimes it takes a few ms for the kill feed to show the kill. But you obviously shot him and he dropped immediately. That's not a new-whatever issue, but rather a HUD element taking slightly longer to popup.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:59 pm 
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JaK- wrote:
Watched it, and looked normal to me. Sometimes it takes a few ms for the kill feed to show the kill. But you obviously shot him and he dropped immediately. That's not a new-whatever issue, but rather a HUD element taking slightly longer to popup.


Wait, what?

You can clearly see and hear it with a timer in your face? I don't see how you're disputing that. I saw it on my end while in game and it's here as proof in this video and you're telling me that, "No, it's just the hud is slow by a few ms?"

I'd be less surprised if you asked me if I ever even really played in that match?
Maybe we'll hear about you disputing the moon landing next...

If you were made out of depleted uranium I could understand but..

I really was there. I saw it. This video shows it. And I know what I'm talking about.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:09 pm 
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I still don't see what you are talking about. The kill feed shows the kill just a hair after your last round was fired. It certainly isn't a 1/2 sec.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:34 pm 
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Maybe this is an opportunity for the devs to discover where the lag problems lie. It was clear to everyone ingame on jcp's side when it happened. One player actually asked, "[TOS Violation], lag?"

It's not AS evident in 3rd party spectate from jc's pov but it's still there. And it's even more evident if you practice playing the tempo of sounds/feedback.

It's off, way off, and it was even more off when it happens to you during gameplay. This is exactly what this thread is all about. *But the devs mysteriously haven't exerience or recreated it. There's a clip of it happening.

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 Post subject: Re: Net-whatever
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:09 pm 
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Thank you for the video. In the instance of the video I do not see an issue as the round is ending which would cause several end of round things to fire off and such. However, if that cadence of action to feedback were to change often then yes it would be a concern. That said, the number of things that could cause a cadence lag like that are quite high so having all the information that we can get is always helpful. Its not necessarily a net related issue it is very possibly a general game code related issue. We will continue to keep an eye out for it and track down any issues we can as they arise.


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