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 Post subject: Re: For the benefit of the new guys (Open Beta Edition)
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:55 am 
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Dev]Doc wrote:
The tutorial is a huge departure from what we've typically done before. It is, as you say, a "this is how you use the buttons" exercise, and in no way attempts to do anything army-training-exposure like previous versions did.

As you may be able to tell by my background, I really really really would've preferred to do AA1-2 style training, only bigger and better and more in-depth. I still hope to work on something like that in the future - but in the mean time, I apologize that the tutorial we have at this time was short and gameplay-focused, rather than challenging and army-exposure focused.

this is the main problem. i understand the game is in its early stages still and you want to work out the core mechanics before spending time on a proper US Army tutorial. but by ignoring this i think you've lost sight of what the US Army funded this project for (to recruit).

remember, this game is supposed to introduce teens to what it would be like in the US Army's boot camp. to get them interested/excited enough to go talk to a recruiter. i don't see that in this game. putting this tutorial on the back burner means you lose sight of what the game needs to actually fulfill its purpose.


- timed obstacle course: aapg's has no timer and is bundled with all other tutorial stuff. just designed to "teach you the buttons", hopefully just a placeholder for now.

- weapon qualification course: (m16, m4) aa2 taught user the fundamentals (not the process of zeroing your weapons, but the actual firing of your weapon) the act of firing your weapon isn't just point and shoot. that is what aapg is. it lacks a proper breathing mechanic in the game. thus the future single player weapons qualification will not hold up if it remains absent in this game.

- medical training: very important. aa2 did it right by making it a single player exercise. aa3 did it wrong by trying to bring the whole system into multiplayer. aa3 was a garbage game. sure, it taught players some important stuff about helping injured soldiers... but in the process it made the game bad. aa2 also taught people about helping squad members with injuries, and left that in the single player because bringing this stuff to multiplayer would just ruin the game.

- sniper qualification: even though it isn't something you'll see in boot camp IRL, it did work out really well in motivating potential recruits into wanting to think about what MOS they'd want if they joined. but in aapg, everyone on your team can use a sniper rifle... (and get revived sigh).


i think you fail to realize that the tutorial is actually the part of the game that brings in the people into the local Army recruiting office.. those single player parts of AA2 were very well done (although the SERE training was not necessary)

i don't see signs of the US Army anywhere on aapg at its current state. the tutorial needs to be done. bring back the medic training. not like aa3. like aa2. bring back the weapons course. right now your choice of core mechanics makes that impossible to take seriously. as a recruiter i would be embarrassed when a recruit asks me to explain the similarities between AAPG and real life. but when you compared aa2 to real life. success! very much authentic, just like the medic training. and the medic training in aapg is teaching us how to press a button. its a disgrace.

hopefully we get a truly successful game when aapg finishes implementing everything. but right now i feel like it is seriously failing to do what the recruiters and drill sergeants want it to do. the game's core mechanics are not right. please understand that this game fails to deliver on its goal without a proper tutorial at its core, and those game mechanics to support that tutorials message.


i feel like the devs are wasting time and resources by "testing"/tweaking the current "official server settings" instead of evaluating if the current game is even going to fulfill the Army's goal.

example: like trying to decide what server settings we should use in regards to revives.... when you should be considering just removing revives completely from the game and finding ways to make the game work without revives instead.


we could save time by debating which parts of aa2 should NOT be included, rather than trying to explain why so many of them were so important and trying to get the devs to put them back into this game.

if we were to have that discussion there would be a short list of things to not bring from aa2 (SERE training for example). most things you're best off by just bringing them over from aa2.

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 Post subject: Re: For the benefit of the new guys (Open Beta Edition)
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:41 pm 
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^^^
agreed.


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 Post subject: Re: For the benefit of the new guys (Open Beta Edition)
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:30 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:22 am
Posts: 15
shhfiftyfive wrote:
Quote:
Dev]Doc wrote:
The tutorial is a huge departure from what we've typically done before. It is, as you say, a "this is how you use the buttons" exercise, and in no way attempts to do anything army-training-exposure like previous versions did.

As you may be able to tell by my background, I really really really would've preferred to do AA1-2 style training, only bigger and better and more in-depth. I still hope to work on something like that in the future - but in the mean time, I apologize that the tutorial we have at this time was short and gameplay-focused, rather than challenging and army-exposure focused.

this is the main problem. i understand the game is in its early stages still and you want to work out the core mechanics before spending time on a proper US Army tutorial. but by ignoring this i think you've lost sight of what the US Army funded this project for (to recruit).

remember, this game is supposed to introduce teens to what it would be like in the US Army's boot camp. to get them interested/excited enough to go talk to a recruiter. i don't see that in this game. putting this tutorial on the back burner means you lose sight of what the game needs to actually fulfill its purpose.


- timed obstacle course: aapg's has no timer and is bundled with all other tutorial stuff. just designed to "teach you the buttons", hopefully just a placeholder for now.

- weapon qualification course: (m16, m4) aa2 taught user the fundamentals (not the process of zeroing your weapons, but the actual firing of your weapon) the act of firing your weapon isn't just point and shoot. that is what aapg is. it lacks a proper breathing mechanic in the game. thus the future single player weapons qualification will not hold up if it remains absent in this game.

- medical training: very important. aa2 did it right by making it a single player exercise. aa3 did it wrong by trying to bring the whole system into multiplayer. aa3 was a garbage game. sure, it taught players some important stuff about helping injured soldiers... but in the process it made the game bad. aa2 also taught people about helping squad members with injuries, and left that in the single player because bringing this stuff to multiplayer would just ruin the game.

- sniper qualification: even though it isn't something you'll see in boot camp IRL, it did work out really well in motivating potential recruits into wanting to think about what MOS they'd want if they joined. but in aapg, everyone on your team can use a sniper rifle... (and get revived sigh).


i think you fail to realize that the tutorial is actually the part of the game that brings in the people into the local Army recruiting office.. those single player parts of AA2 were very well done (although the SERE training was not necessary)

i don't see signs of the US Army anywhere on aapg at its current state. the tutorial needs to be done. bring back the medic training. not like aa3. like aa2. bring back the weapons course. right now your choice of core mechanics makes that impossible to take seriously. as a recruiter i would be embarrassed when a recruit asks me to explain the similarities between AAPG and real life. but when you compared aa2 to real life. success! very much authentic, just like the medic training. and the medic training in aapg is teaching us how to press a button. its a disgrace.

hopefully we get a truly successful game when aapg finishes implementing everything. but right now i feel like it is seriously failing to do what the recruiters and drill sergeants want it to do. the game's core mechanics are not right. please understand that this game fails to deliver on its goal without a proper tutorial at its core, and those game mechanics to support that tutorials message.


i feel like the devs are wasting time and resources by "testing"/tweaking the current "official server settings" instead of evaluating if the current game is even going to fulfill the Army's goal.

example: like trying to decide what server settings we should use in regards to revives.... when you should be considering just removing revives completely from the game and finding ways to make the game work without revives instead.


we could save time by debating which parts of aa2 should NOT be included, rather than trying to explain why so many of them were so important and trying to get the devs to put them back into this game.

if we were to have that discussion there would be a short list of things to not bring from aa2 (SERE training for example). most things you're best off by just bringing them over from aa2.


I completely agree. On a positive note, the audio's/military humor in the current training course is a great start. It needs to be much more difficult to complete and separated instead of being clogged together. I love the idea of a shooting range (I've been through basic training), you do not graduate basic unless you can qualify on an M-16/M-4 or get issued any fire arm you are not qualified on for that matter. But yes... The fundamentals of training should not be overlooked or placed on the back-burner. Currently their are no milestones in the game (Except for badges and saying Hooah at 5 honor). I think sniper required honor 10 or 15? Special forces 25?..


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 Post subject: Re: For the benefit of the new guys (Open Beta Edition)
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:24 pm 
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I would also like to see training much more developed in this game, partly for the "this is what it's like" aspect and the "getting better at the game" aspect. I will focus on the second point in my comments that follow, but still have the first in mind.

It took me a while to discover Giupta (sp?) range. I only came across it after viewing a video that demonstrated the selection button required to launch the range after the initial training. Though it is not enough, being able to access the range is much better than just having the initial training module. I would like sometimes to be able to skip the initial module and go straight to the range, though.

I like the suggestions about timed obstacle courses, as this would give opportunity to practice. I'd also like to see a firing range that does something to condition players to act as if they are being shot at, rather than just marching through a shooting range. I don't know whether it is "realistic" to have a shooting range where the shooter has the sense of being shot at (paintballs, timers, etc), but I imagine it would be great practice for the game itself.

I'd like to see recon developed a bit. I can only run around an empty space so long before I start to lose interest. It would be great to extend recon to populate it with training opponents--even just placing a few automated shooters in likely spots would be good practice for figuring out how to maneuver to avoid enemy fire and take out enemy shooters.

It would be cool to have a basic intro to team movement, whether as a training module, video, or even text. The military doesn't send people into a firefight before they've learned to work together in a team. The full training experience can't be replicated here (at least not with lots of players putting in time together with it), but it would be really nice to have access to some tips.

Come to think of it, it might be interesting to add some smaller "training scenarios" that are a bit more directed than jumping into the full game. For example, a scenario where a few players go through one of the battle sim areas with a directed plan that helps us learn how to use cover from teammates to attack an enemy location.

Anyhow, the game is fun. More emphasis on training would help inexperienced player like me get to a level where we can go into the matches and not feel like we are just getting shot up all the time...


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 Post subject: Re: For the benefit of the new guys (Open Beta Edition)
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:33 pm 
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How about some co-op missions where you and other people <1(This would be optional training for the cool people), practice against each other. For example, you could have a lobby for this, you get into say Mission I, with player1, player2, and player3. You have certain objectives to complete, and certain targets to shoot.

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 Post subject: Re: For the benefit of the new guys (Open Beta Edition)
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:53 am 
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{-Blackout-} wrote:
How about some co-op missions where you and other people <1(This would be optional training for the cool people), practice against each other. For example, you could have a lobby for this, you get into say Mission I, with player1, player2, and player3. You have certain objectives to complete, and certain targets to shoot.


Yes! This suggestion meshes nicely with something I was trying to get at. Thanks, Blackout!


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 Post subject: Re: For the benefit of the new guys (Open Beta Edition)
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:48 pm 
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All will come in good time. I would rather them pound out the issues with the game before they start re-designing training.

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 Post subject: Re: For the benefit of the new guys (Open Beta Edition)
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:19 pm 
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=WMW=JaK wrote:
All will come in good time. I would rather them pound out the issues with the game before they start re-designing training.


I would rather them almost finishing the game before putting in training no one ever re plays

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 Post subject: Re: For the benefit of the new guys (Open Beta Edition)
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:33 am 
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Doba- heck, if it could go co-op were you could have "x" number of people in it for different things to include follow-on Schools (Sniper, Sapper, Ranger, etc.) as players or (for the Schools) Instructors, 5th CD would be all over it for our Schools besides normal gameplay.

School wishlist (when applicable):

- Sniper/Urban Sniper
- Sapper
- Ranger
- Airborne
- Air Assault
- Special Forces

Some may think this is silly, but I want AAPG to be the recruiting tool it's supposed to like the other gentlemen above. (Also, I want to use it for my unit, lol)

Heck, if the Devs wanted to be funny and put it to use, we could even have competitions from the Schools eventually on an annual basis- Best Ranger, the Army Sniper competition, and whatever else the Army has. You register with a Battle Buddy to represent your unit or yourselves and work to win.

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 Post subject: Re: For the benefit of the new guys (Open Beta Edition)
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:46 am 
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RoynonFisher wrote:
Doba- heck, if it could go co-op were you could have "x" number of people in it for different things to include follow-on Schools (Sniper, Sapper, Ranger, etc.) as players or (for the Schools) Instructors, 5th CD would be all over it for our Schools besides normal gameplay.

School wishlist (when applicable):

- Sniper/Urban Sniper
- Sapper
- Ranger
- Airborne
- Air Assault
- Special Forces

Some may think this is silly, but I want AAPG to be the recruiting tool it's supposed to like the other gentlemen above. (Also, I want to use it for my unit, lol)

Heck, if the Devs wanted to be funny and put it to use, we could even have competitions from the Schools eventually on an annual basis- Best Ranger, the Army Sniper competition, and whatever else the Army has. You register with a Battle Buddy to represent your unit or yourselves and work to win.

Well that's definitely a cool idea.

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