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 Post subject: Re: Format Discussion: 4v4 BDX, 5v5 FLO Maps
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:02 pm 
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I agree with any efforts in trying to increase the size of the map lists (as long as the map plays decently with the format in question). I disagree with having multiple formats the same league/ladder. Those are two completely different styles of play and intermixing them under the same roof so to speak would be a bad idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Format Discussion: 4v4 BDX, 5v5 FLO Maps
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:06 pm 
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yeah I'm not a fan of 4v4 one day then 5v5 the next.. I gotta have my set number of guys ready for each day.. I guess when some teams have high talent reserves just waiting to get into starting rotation, this would work

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 Post subject: Re: Format Discussion: 4v4 BDX, 5v5 FLO Maps
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:09 pm 
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=IK=Doba= wrote:
yeah I'm not a fan of 4v4 one day then 5v5 the next.. I gotta have my set number of guys ready for each day.. I guess when some teams have high talent reserves just waiting to get into starting rotation, this would work


I kind of disagree with larger rosters making switching 4->5->4 any easier. People get frustrated by not knowing if they're playing on a given night, etc. It creates tension. Nothing like having 5 people show up for a 4v4 and drawing straws to see who sits. All those high-talent players want to show their stuff and compete, not sit on Twitch and watch the other guys play.

If leagues ever move towards a ban/pick system, the number of players definitely needs to be known in advance. You can't have a player sitting around, wondering if he's playing or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Format Discussion: 4v4 BDX, 5v5 FLO Maps
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:31 pm 
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For reference. His post from other thread. And I agree with all the things said. BCPull also explain what I was saying better. Having two different formats in the same league causes problems.

warpain wrote:
After playing a few pugs this past week in the 4v4 format, I believe the 5v5 is still the better option from a competition standpoint given the way "most" of the generally thought of competition maps are designed. I agree that the 4v4 format might re-balance some of the more traditionally defensive sided maps, but by doing that I think it also discourages team play. At a higher level (of any competitive shooter) there is a emphasis on trading frags and helping your team in any situation. I think because of the way that most maps and choke points are designed in AAPG (distance between choke points, positioning of choke points, or both), the 4v4 format forces more of a 1v1 style waiting game (like aa2 was). Adding that extra lurker, or rotator in result allows teams on both assault and defense to be more creative and fluid.

And I don't put much value in the point of 5v5 making some maps "too" defensive sided. I think having defensive sided maps in the game adds variety and just rewards the assaulting team for being more coordinated (See Pipeline in AA2, or Nuke/Train in CS:GO). I just think 4v4 is a less exciting format overall from both a player and spectator perspective. But it might be the better option at the moment simply from a player numbers perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: Format Discussion: 4v4 BDX, 5v5 FLO Maps
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:39 pm 
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I wrote that under the assumption teams would know what map they are playing in advance, this is the way it works right now...

I don't believe making all current maps 5v5 would work out as most maps are simply too small. If we make both a 4v4 and 5v5 leagues, NA teams will just choose the one that they are most accustomed to, which is 4v4.

And who has time to play in two leagues at the same time? The vast majority of players work and would not be able to fit two games per week.

It really needs to be housed under one league, with all teams aware of what map and format will be played in advance (as is the current case with fraggednation, no surprises).

Could Shadowstep be played 5v5 more effectively than 4v4? Probably. But we have to start somewhere, and that is why I suggested only FLO maps for now. Warpain and I are not disagreeing for the most part, we are just not agreeing on what maps to play 5v5 on, and that can be settled by vote on FN. As for having two separate leagues at the same time, it would simply not work.

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 Post subject: Re: Format Discussion: 4v4 BDX, 5v5 FLO Maps
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:52 pm 
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DragonEyez wrote:
As for having two separate leagues at the same time, it would simply not work.


It worked in AA2. Also a lot of leagues alternated off of each other. One would start during the other's off season.

What maps don't work as 5v5? Crossfire is an obvious one (although I use to have a lot of fun with 5v5 crossfire). Someone suggested Siege, which I disagree with. I there there are plenty of routes that need to be covered in Siege. I think it would actually benefit going back to 5v5. Lockdown doesn't get included anyway. Anything else? Why don't we just remove the maps that don't work well with 5v5 (and possibly add some new maps)? We all hate crossfire anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Format Discussion: 4v4 BDX, 5v5 FLO Maps
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:30 am 
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Hello, AvatarAang from .13

I think 5v5 would be perfect if we could have better maps with more pushes options, and way bigger. Imo 4v4 is limited for strategies on both assault and defense.

I'd prefer 5v5.


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 Post subject: Re: Format Discussion: 4v4 BDX, 5v5 FLO Maps
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:51 am 
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jeee wrote:
Why don't we just remove the maps that don't work well with 5v5 (and possibly add some new maps)? We all hate crossfire anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Format Discussion: 4v4 BDX, 5v5 FLO Maps
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:05 am 
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jeee wrote:
It worked in AA2. Also a lot of leagues alternated off of each other. One would start during the other's off season.


AA2 had way more teams involved and could endure the divide. AAPG will barely fill up the 16 team NA ESL requirement.

Additionally, Siege and Crossfire would be no fun to play under the 5v5 format, Euros complain throughout the forums that it's simply too many players for maps that size. It would also be too drastic of a change. As a league, admins really do not want to give off the impression that it's "MY way or the highway" by forcing 5v5 on all maps. Some teams would simply not sign up.

The ideal way to go is to start with some maps and go from there, as my original post suggested. Get people practicing the 5v5 format, get them acquainted with the changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Format Discussion: 4v4 BDX, 5v5 FLO Maps
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:04 pm 
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DragonEyez wrote:
As a league, admins really do not want to give off the impression that it's "MY way or the highway" by forcing 5v5 on all maps. Some teams would simply not sign up.

For my experience, this is not true. The first statement or the second statement.

Additionally, Siege is a fine 5v5 map. IDK why you think it isn't.

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