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 Post subject: Re: Best format for competition ?
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:51 pm 
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Hello Philippovich, Avatar aang from .13 here. I agree for Crossfire and Breach, they should be out of competitions 5v5. BUT, in my opinion 5v5 is really better than 4v4. Seriously, 5v5 you have more and more ways to do nice teamwork than 4v4... 4v4 would only be 1v1 fight everytime... quite boring for me :) And siege is pretty good for 5v5 imo :)
Best format is bo3 (always, groupstages AND brackets), 16 rounds. :D Or more rounds but less minuts!


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 Post subject: Re: Best format for competition ?
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:05 pm 
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removing inner, crossfire and maby breach would be nice imo. Also i would like to see some changes and fixes on maps to make them more balanced for both sides.

in inner current meta is just that defenders sit and watches every entrance and attack has very limited amount potential spots to challenge them compared to that how many positions def has to secure those spots. Only way i have ever seen somebody taking round in inner as assault is basically having good "luck" with tac nades, or just smoking whole inner after couple "lucky" pickups. but its pretty safe to say how defence based map is.

cant say if crossfire is anyway defence or assault based but there is just so little room inside the map and spam nades usually takes down 2/5 of both teams just because there is no place to be.

in breach, well after spambattles settled down little bit as defence ur stuck in small house where u cant get out just leaves me with claustrophobia. ur trying to change spot after being spotted ending up all of ur team just running inside the house and ending up hugging each other in the kitchen :D.

and dunno why scopes r banned on some maps like siege and breach. well it maby sounds totally crazy but what have i played those maps as sniper its not that bad so why dont let players decide which guns they wanna use and not just ban them because there is no much long range on those maps.

what comes to rounds id like to see bo3 with 19 rounds and 1 point for winning map, it would eliminate extra rounds like if game is 9-0 why would anyone want to play rest of the rounds and in bo3 or bo2 knowing the first map better in this game would not be as important as it is nowadays since u can start the game again and win game in overtime. TOUCHDOWN fights for deciding sides (maby after/if we get comp mode in the game).

those r just my opinions and experiences and things i see them.

-Vinski


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 Post subject: Re: Best format for competition ?
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:17 am 
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I don't agree with you Vinski about inner, we should not remove it. There are lot of way to attack and to do it differently, lot of tactics to push! Only bad thing are nades, way too powerful on this map!


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 Post subject: Re: Best format for competition ?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:57 am 
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ichibaby wrote:
I don't agree with you Vinski about inner, we should not remove it. There are lot of way to attack and to do it differently, lot of tactics to push! Only bad thing are nades, way too powerful on this map!


I do not believe nades are a problem on Inner Hospital, but they are a problem on maps like Breach, Crossfire and Siege. Specially in a 5v5 format.


But I do not believe we have found a consensus on what format is best. I think that trying out things like doing a 4v4 one night cup, or an UMM only cup, are ways to try to find out what works best.
Map wise here is my list (in this order):

SpringStreet
Intercept
Inner Hospital
WatchDog (DE)
ShadowStep
Siege

I also think that Red Line has not been given the chance it should. Because I like maps that are bigger and also spreads out both defense and assault a lot. has anybody tried Coldfront or Slums (either format) in a scrim?

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 Post subject: Re: Best format for competition ?
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:43 pm 
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Maps?

TOP TIER (pretty even maps):
-Watchdog_DE/Watchdog_C4 ( I would like to see C4 tried with bomb secure off, which is now default in patch coming out tomorrow)
-SpringStreet_EX
-InnerHospital_EX (There are plenty of way to assault this map. Nothing static about it. If you're having trouble on assault, try being more creative with strategies. Focus one side of the map at a time, use smokes in the right spots, etc.)
-Breach_EX
-Siege_EX

2ND TIER:
-Intercept_EX
-Crossfire_DE (I actually like this map. I think people don't give it enough love because they can't figure out how to play it correctly. 4v4 still gives everyone enough places to play and 5v5 allows teams to be aggressive with a lot of CQB fights)

3RD TIER:
-ShadowStep_EX (This map always felt a bit random. Whoever had the right nades to get picks at red stairs usually wins)
-HarborAssault_TH (With 5v5, this is a great map. With 4v4, its a little more difficult, but I think it is still viable and different.)

DONT USE TIER:
-Lockdown_EX
-OuterHospital_DE (Its actually a decent map to scrim. No one likes to play it though)


Best of? We use BO17 in NA a lot. I really like it. Not too long and not too short. I would also be interested in trying two maps BO13 for playoffs.

Amount of players? Originally I was a big advocate for 5v5. After seeing the activity levels and seeing teams struggle to find 5 solid players, we switched to 4v4. I now really like the change. I thought it would be a lot harder to play, but I think it opens the door for a lot more unique strategies. Defensive gaps are more frequent and it rewards a team for being able to exploit weaknesses. I think it also balances most maps so less maps are so one sided.

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 Post subject: Re: Best format for competition ?
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:02 pm 
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jeee wrote:
Maps?

TOP TIER (pretty even maps):
-Watchdog_DE/Watchdog_C4 ( I would like to see C4 tried with bomb secure off, which is now default in patch coming out tomorrow)
-SpringStreet_EX
-InnerHospital_EX (There are plenty of way to assault this map. Nothing static about it. If you're having trouble on assault, try being more creative with strategies. Focus one side of the map at a time, use smokes in the right spots, etc.)
-Breach_EX
-Siege_EX

2ND TIER:
-Intercept_EX
-Crossfire_DE (I actually like this map. I think people don't give it enough love because they can't figure out how to play it correctly. 4v4 still gives everyone enough places to play and 5v5 allows teams to be aggressive with a lot of CQB fights)

3RD TIER:
-ShadowStep_EX (This map always felt a bit random. Whoever had the right nades to get picks at red stairs usually wins)
-HarborAssault_TH (With 5v5, this is a great map. With 4v4, its a little more difficult, but I think it is still viable and different.)

DONT USE TIER:
-Lockdown_EX
-OuterHospital_DE (Its actually a decent map to scrim. No one likes to play it though)


Best of? We use BO17 in NA a lot. I really like it. Not too long and not too short. I would also be interested in trying two maps BO13 for playoffs.

Amount of players? Originally I was a big advocate for 5v5. After seeing the activity levels and seeing teams struggle to find 5 solid players, we switched to 4v4. I now really like the change. I thought it would be a lot harder to play, but I think it opens the door for a lot more unique strategies. Defensive gaps are more frequent and it rewards a team for being able to exploit weaknesses. I think it also balances most maps so less maps are so one sided.


+1

As Jee said, Outer Hospital is not bad to scrim, but a majority of the competitive player base seem to not like it. I -hate- pubbing it, but from what I remember from matching it, it wasn't horrible.

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 Post subject: Re: Best format for competition ?
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:27 am 
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Posts: 541
jeee wrote:
Maps?

TOP TIER (pretty even maps):
-Watchdog_DE/Watchdog_C4 ( I would like to see C4 tried with bomb secure off, which is now default in patch coming out tomorrow)
-SpringStreet_EX
-InnerHospital_EX (There are plenty of way to assault this map. Nothing static about it. If you're having trouble on assault, try being more creative with strategies. Focus one side of the map at a time, use smokes in the right spots, etc.)
-Breach_EX
-Siege_EX

2ND TIER:
-Intercept_EX
-Crossfire_DE (I actually like this map. I think people don't give it enough love because they can't figure out how to play it correctly. 4v4 still gives everyone enough places to play and 5v5 allows teams to be aggressive with a lot of CQB fights)

3RD TIER:
-ShadowStep_EX (This map always felt a bit random. Whoever had the right nades to get picks at red stairs usually wins)
-HarborAssault_TH (With 5v5, this is a great map. With 4v4, its a little more difficult, but I think it is still viable and different.)

DONT USE TIER:
-Lockdown_EX
-OuterHospital_DE (Its actually a decent map to scrim. No one likes to play it though)


Best of? We use BO17 in NA a lot. I really like it. Not too long and not too short. I would also be interested in trying two maps BO13 for playoffs.

Amount of players? Originally I was a big advocate for 5v5. After seeing the activity levels and seeing teams struggle to find 5 solid players, we switched to 4v4. I now really like the change. I thought it would be a lot harder to play, but I think it opens the door for a lot more unique strategies. Defensive gaps are more frequent and it rewards a team for being able to exploit weaknesses. I think it also balances most maps so less maps are so one sided.


I might slide Breach down into the second tier, and I'm not really a fan of Crossfire, but otherwise I agree. Inner and Spring Street are, in my opinion, the two best maps in the game.

I like Spring Street because there's so many different ways either team can play it. Either team can be aggressive and have success.

Like jee said with Inner, if you focus one side of the map you can force rotations that open up other areas. Use smoke to cut off an enemy player's sightline. Don't just rely on winning your 1v1s. Changing things up and getting an early pick forces the defending team to cover the same number of gaps with fewer people.

I think Watchdog could be up there as well, but most of the competition play on it to this point has been on DE, and most of the pubbing has been C4 with bomb secure. Two separate sites to plant that each have their own pros and cons, even being in the same building, definitely would change how the map plays. Z is obviously much more exposed(especially to grenades), theoretically making it harder to plant, but that situation flips after it's planted and it's a risky defuse. Y isn't as exposed to grenades, but you may find it harder to get to as the assaulting team. I'd be interested to see how it would play out in comp matches. With a new sound engine I think this map could play a lot better.

I don't think Siege is a map that would be best played 3v3. I think it plays just fine 4v4 or 5v5.

I haven't played enough Intercept in general or in scrims to have too much of an opinion on how it would play competitively, but I think it's worth exploring.

I don't disagree that there are good ways to play Crossfire, but I just think the map is way too confined, especially with how powerful frags are. That being said, this is one map that I wouldn't call defense-sided.

I like Harbor as a 5v5 for sure, 4v4's getting small for it. 6v6 would be perfect for Harbor.

I'd like matches to be one map with enough rounds to where teams have the ability to make adjustments. I feel like if you were going to play two maps, to balance out time you'd have to cut the number of rounds per map down too much.

How about a BO17 with side switches every four rounds? I feel like I've seen that done somewhere, but I can't remember where. It would also probably be unrealistic to attempt without a functioning tournament mode anyway.

/tiredramble


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 Post subject: Re: Best format for competition ?
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:24 am 
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Here is an idea...

What if we had two types of format? 4v4 for maps such as Siege, crossfire, and breach. Then a 5v5 for Springstreet, Harbor, inner and Watchdog?

5v5 allows for the bigger maps to have more excitement because you now have that floater. But the 4v4 allows for smaller maps to not be so packed and allowing teams to actually play with some space.

This would allow teams to not always need a 5th which sometimes is hard to come by.

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 Post subject: Re: Best format for competition ?
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:51 pm 
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rokis wrote:
Here is an idea...

What if we had two types of format? 4v4 for maps such as Siege, crossfire, and breach. Then a 5v5 for Springstreet, Harbor, inner and Watchdog?

5v5 allows for the bigger maps to have more excitement because you now have that floater. But the 4v4 allows for smaller maps to not be so packed and allowing teams to actually play with some space.

This would allow teams to not always need a 5th which sometimes is hard to come by.

I dont think 4v4 and 5v5 in the same league is a good idea, since gameplay changes a lot.

I do agree that 4v4 might be tried in some future cups.

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 Post subject: Re: Best format for competition ?
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:17 pm 
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bart3097 wrote:
rokis wrote:
Here is an idea...

What if we had two types of format? 4v4 for maps such as Siege, crossfire, and breach. Then a 5v5 for Springstreet, Harbor, inner and Watchdog?

5v5 allows for the bigger maps to have more excitement because you now have that floater. But the 4v4 allows for smaller maps to not be so packed and allowing teams to actually play with some space.

This would allow teams to not always need a 5th which sometimes is hard to come by.

I dont think 4v4 and 5v5 in the same league is a good idea, since gameplay changes a lot.

I do agree that 4v4 might be tried in some future cups.



NA has been full 4v4 for a while now. It works out rather well. Let us know how you guys like it

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