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 Post subject: Re: Training Tier 2 & 3 Unlocks
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:07 pm 
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ReaperDie wrote:
If other gaming companies told their clients that they would be out of business tomorrow.


Ask EA when they're releasing the next patch for Battlefield. See what answer you get. Activision doesn't even patch MW. They just foist another "version" of MW 8+ on you for another $60 and call it a new game. Not to mention that you have to pay another $15 for a few new maps every now and again.

But for an even better example, look at ArenaNet with the release of Guild Wars 2. They are unarguably one of the BEST companies at communicating with their players. Yet when it comes to something as "simple" as a release date (which was originally supposed to be June 26) you get this: "Since players aren't tremendously happy with ArenaNet's answer of "when it's ready" every time the question of the Guild Wars 2 release date comes up, any hint of further clarification is something to be prized." (http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/17 ... e-specula/)

There are very few gaming companies out there who stick to a regular release cycle. Or even commit to a hard release date. You know why? Because when something happens, and it always does, that causes that date to be pushed, the community has a meltdown. It's just not worth it. To use the old adage, you can't make all of the people happy all of the time. But all to often, you can't make some of those people happy ANY of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Training Tier 2 & 3 Unlocks
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:26 pm 
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we're not always the exception to murphy's law either. the unforeseen can happen at any time.

even if we ask the devs for a timeline, we're still probably seeing only half of what needs to be done, because it's still a work in progress. if they're fixing to improve overall performance, maybe some of us can still stick around a little longer. if they give us treats, we'd do the same thing.

I think we need to feed them tacos though. when was the last time the devs were fed?

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 Post subject: Re: Training Tier 2 & 3 Unlocks
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:20 am 
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I agree they can't give us a release date for the next patch as they need to make sure they've optimized it and as many bugs as possible have been resolved. In some ways it's a bit like my job in research, I can't tell my managers when the work is done exactly as I don't always know what problems I'm going to run into. If I miss my deadline because of unforeseen problems, I would have a very angry boss wanting to know why I didn't finish the work in time. Instead what I feed him is what I'm currently working on, what stage of the work this is at and how much money I think I'll need to finish.

I'm sure the Devs could do something quite similar (just not the money bit), just let us know what's being worked on and at what stage of the work they're at. If they run into problems, they can tell us so we know it's being worked on and that a patch will be released when it's done.

Hopefully, this way the community will feel a bit more involved in the work required to have a patch ready for release.


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 Post subject: Re: Training Tier 2 & 3 Unlocks
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:01 pm 
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PapaBear=VX9= wrote:
ReaperDie wrote:
If other gaming companies told their clients that they would be out of business tomorrow.


Ask EA when they're releasing the next patch for Battlefield. See what answer you get. Activision doesn't even patch MW. They just foist another "version" of MW 8+ on you for another $60 and call it a new game. Not to mention that you have to pay another $15 for a few new maps every now and again.

But for an even better example, look at ArenaNet with the release of Guild Wars 2. They are unarguably one of the BEST companies at communicating with their players. Yet when it comes to something as "simple" as a release date (which was originally supposed to be June 26) you get this: "Since players aren't tremendously happy with ArenaNet's answer of "when it's ready" every time the question of the Guild Wars 2 release date comes up, any hint of further clarification is something to be prized." (http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/17 ... e-specula/)

There are very few gaming companies out there who stick to a regular release cycle. Or even commit to a hard release date. You know why? Because when something happens, and it always does, that causes that date to be pushed, the community has a meltdown. It's just not worth it. To use the old adage, you can't make all of the people happy all of the time. But all to often, you can't make some of those people happy ANY of the time.


Much of what you say is just flagrantly wrong. For example, Black Ops 2 had a release date the second they announced the game. I am willing to wager millions of dollars (because that's how much money is riding on their punctuality of maintaining the relase date) that it will be released in November, just like they said. AA3, so many of its players say, has been in the "Coming soon" stage for three years. So don't even attempt to make the comparison to such a fantastic franchise like Call of Duty. Call of Duty is to AA3 what Major League Baseball is to the Little League, and believe it or not that comparison is not far off.

I've logged about 2,000 hours on Guild Wars 1, so you're 100% correct about GW2. I was getting my hopes up that it would be out right around now, and it's definitely a disappointment. But what GW2 does do well is they maintain a constant communication with their fans. They have a twitter account, and they're constantly writing articles and blogs about what they're currently working on. Compare that with AA3, where the Dev's almost insultingly ignore questions about what's being done to improve the game. And they never say what they're working on, or what's coming next. It's always a mystery. Every single commercial game has right on their website the gaming features they're developing, yet with AA3 we have virtually no idea what's coming next. I don't know why it's such a secret. I can only logically deduce that it's because they're not developing much at all, and so to hide that they shroud the upcoming features as classified to public knowledge. Again, I can only speculate the reason.

You are right though, that at least AA3 is free to play. That's cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Training Tier 2 & 3 Unlocks
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:56 am 
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-cap!tal1sm.. wrote:
Much of what you say is just flagrantly wrong. For example, Black Ops 2 had a release date the second they announced the game. I am willing to wager millions of dollars (because that's how much money is riding on their punctuality of maintaining the relase date) that it will be released in November, just like they said. AA3, so many of its players say, has been in the "Coming soon" stage for three years. So don't even attempt to make the comparison to such a fantastic franchise like Call of Duty. Call of Duty is to AA3 what Major League Baseball is to the Little League, and believe it or not that comparison is not far off.


how much u willing to bet they didn't already have the game, which they may have needed to fine-tune, before they made the announcement?

there's a wise old saying: don't count ur chickens before they hatch.

TL;DR below:

the original motivator isn't to entertain. in the beginning, AGP was employed to make a recruiting tool. it just happens to have some entertainment value, because that's something they're gonna need to make recruiting work, and it did. so, it's not that it's in the same league, it's a different sport with different rules.

the player/customer relationship is done the other way around. that's why some ideas here get shot down because that's not the purpose of the game. just because it's seen in the other games people love to compare it to, doesn't mean it's authentic. no justification of "I paid for a server with honor slots, so the game isn't free!", with the mentality that money is power, is gonna make anyone budge within reason. Freedom isn't free. just because u pay taxes doesn't imply u get freedom to do whatever u want. that's why there are laws. the only way to change that, is to change the laws. even the ones that are designed to pacify society, no matter how frivolous.

I think I can speak for myself when I know how it works with government projects running on a budget like this. the private sector has a cushion point where they can have practically anything money can buy based on ideas on a whim, to make a game. the success of the game they produce rides on how much that pays itself off, and whether it will generate revenue after that point, or they have to make cuts. they're in it for the money. the main focus of production is not the integrity for anything else.

that's why some games do good, others do bad. updates and sequels either make them better or worse. then someone thinks it's a good idea, draws up some timeline, and supposedly builds something out of it to be released by a certain time. they could make a military game featuring zombies in some future akin to HL2. in what reality would necessitate a professional army to clean up some science project that was someone else's mess? See BO2.

with the government, it's either green-lighted, or dropped. they have to work with WYSISYG because of these limitations. there's little flexibility on that aspect, so arguing against it is moot. it's a different system altogether.

u might say "well, AA3 features a made up enemy with made up weapons". that might be so, but that's half the story. this is similar to OPFOR operations designed to study and train troops in being aware of a certain enemy's environment. they did that in AA2 with insurgents that look like they came from a middle-eastern nation, which coincided with the same training they did IRL, while we actually had operations overseas to similar environments.

AGP has also expanded to serve other parts of the government, including the secret service, because it provided the framework to be used as a training tool. it's within reason to look at simulating real situations that we are currently facing, and in AA3's case, against a more equal foe with comparable tools used against us. not some parallel universe, where we anticipate situations that may never happen, and we become more disassociated with reality.

there's no way that there's any obligation to the public to make a "better" game, if ur not playing or treating it differently or the way it should have been played. it's not simply just a game. for good reason, release dates and any discussion thereof are OPSEC. it's always tentative given what they want to add over time, and how long it will take to reach that goal. if they wanted to, we would have still been playing AA2 today, so that AA3 would have not been released yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Training Tier 2 & 3 Unlocks
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:38 pm 
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You're missing the point. The point is AA3 is a government project. The Devs will be paid no matter what happens, unless the US Treasury goes bankrupt. It doesn't matter if 10,000 people play their game (COD), or 100 (AA3). That's the ultimate failure of public vs private enterprises. COD makes their games knowing that if they fail, they won't be paid and won't be able to feed their families. That's how private companies work. They don't receive funds from a mommy to then squander, exactly like AA3 did. They bust their butts (Something I simply know the Devs are not doing) to create some of the greatest and most groundbreaking games ever created, because there's a profit motive. Perhaps there's also a pride motive as well, considering the first modern warfare will go down in history as one of the most daring and risk-taking ventures an already-successful franchise has undergone. They took the risk and guess what: they profited. Beauty of private business.

Meanwhile, look at AA3. The Devs haven't done anything groundbreaking at all. Everything is slow-paced and lethargic. These "restrictions" you speak of are irrelevant to time-frames. It takes half a decade for AA to do what takes COD a couple months. I'm sure the fanboys (I'm a fanboy too, I've been playing since AA1) will say COD has so much more staff and money, but a private company would not use that excuse like a government game does. That's why Fedex and UPS kicked the crap out of the U.S. Postal Service. They provided better service for lower rates, simply through innovation, hard-work, and risk-taking.

Those three adjectives could never describe a single thing the AA3 developers have ever done, and that's why it is a failure as a game. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Training Tier 2 & 3 Unlocks
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:52 pm 
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-cap!tal1sm.. wrote:
Much of what you say is just flagrantly wrong.


Negative, Sparky. Just look around.

-cap!tal1sm.. wrote:
...(because that's how much money is riding on their punctuality of maintaining the relase date)...


You pretty well summed it up right there. Marketing-dictated release dates only ensure a not-quite-finished product when things happen (and they ALWAYS do) that push the already tight deadlines back. More on that later.

-cap!tal1sm.. wrote:
Every single commercial game has right on their website the gaming features they're developing, ...


Really? Care to source that? And did that information come from the developers themselves or was that an entire marketing department putting out fluff material? Cause there is a difference. Regardless, I still would like to see you show me more than a couple of shops who tell you exactly what they're working on and when. ANet doesn't count, since I've already given them credit for their exceptional communication group.

-cap!tal1sm.. wrote:
I can only logically deduce that it's because they're not developing much at all...


Your deductive reasoning skills are astounding. :roll:

-cap!tal1sm.. wrote:
COD makes their games knowing that if they fail, they won't be paid and won't be able to feed their families.

-cap!tal1sm.. wrote:
... to create some of the greatest and most groundbreaking games ever created...


These two quotes really made me laugh. First, I'll address your "groundbreaking" comment. COD4 was unarguably groundbreaking. I'll give you that much. It was released in 2007. Honestly, what have they done different since then? How much innovation and hard work do you think they put into MW2? WaW was at least a different genre, even though it was still a new skin on the same game. How difficult do you think it is to hit a marketing release date when you're basically rehashing the same game with a few new maps and gun skins? What, 6 times now? What has really changed since COD4 was released? Being a COD player myself, I can tell you that it hasn't been a whole lot. The single player has been fun on each of those, but the multiplayer is the same old stuff. And being someone who prefers a more strategic game, I got pretty bored with COD's "run-kill-die-respawn-repeat" gamestyle. I know more COD players who have quit playing than I do AA players. And I've played AA since it launched. So even with half the time and 3 times the games, more people have grown tired of the same old COD. Everyone will be all excited when the next version releases, and when it's yet again the same game, they'll quickly start playing something else. So even the game you're cheerleading for still has its issues. Which brings me back to my point about marketing deadlines: when you follow a hard marketing release date, things WILL get left out and the game will be incomplete. Don't believe me? Think back real hard to the launch of any of the COD series. Go back and look at their forums. You could almost swap them out with the complaints here. Activision has a great marketing department, and a ton of developers, but even they aren't perfect. That doesn't change the fact that Activision could still put a COD sticker on a dog turd and they'd still sell a few million copies before someone starts wondering about the smell. That's one of the benefits to being a very big studio with a successful game series that you can exploit with minimal effort. And more power to them. They've found something that works. Again, this isn't new information to anyone who's truly willing to look at their business model objectively. It's not a bad model to have. If you can maximize profits with minimal work, why that's capitalism at its finest.

-cap!tal1sm.. wrote:
It takes half a decade for AA to do what takes COD a couple months. I'm sure the fanboys (I'm a fanboy too, I've been playing since AA1) will say COD has so much more staff and money, but a private company would not use that excuse like a government game does.


The fact that you don't see how the two can be related shows that you really don't have much of a clue as to how a business like this works. It has nothing to do with public vs private businesses. No matter what side you're on, funding and staffing mean quite a bit. Give the AA guys just the office supply budget of just one of those COD releases and I'll bet you'd be astounded and amazed at what they're able to do with it. And not just for one game. But for the next ten years of America's Army.

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 Post subject: Re: Training Tier 2 & 3 Unlocks
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:05 pm 
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agree here. Tier 2 was scheduled for 2010.

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 Post subject: Re: Training Tier 2 & 3 Unlocks
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:05 am 
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still waiting...

patience is a virtue.

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 Post subject: Re: Training Tier 2 & 3 Unlocks
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:41 am 
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Tier 2 could simply have been the new scopes that have been released with 3.3. This would also have forced the newer players to play a bit of coop in order to obtain the points to unlock tier 2, which would have meant that these players would know more about game mechanics before coming into multi-player matches.


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